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light wiring |
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| message from Nigel on 14 May 2004 |
Hi
Whilst doing the good samaritan bit for a pensioner friend he asked if
I would change the batten light holders in his flat as he had smashed
one. I am no electrician but managed to change three, the wiring being
50 years old and red cloth covered wire and black cloth wire. So two
wires no problem, three battens changed.
The batten he had smashed disintegrated to dust after 25 solid years
of capstan full strength cigarettes. This had left a couple of bare
wires showing. I unscrewed what was left and found not 2 but 5 wires.
3 red, of which 2 were twisted together at the bare wire and 2
separate black wires. Obviously, the attempt I made ended in a blown
lighting circuit fuse and I beat a hasty retreat to find the answer to
this problem and left him using table lamps for the weekend.
The batten holder has three sets of attachments for live at one end
and neutral at the other and unmarked in the middle.
Can someone point out the basics of what I should do with these 5
wires to get his circuit back on. Any help would be really
appreciated.
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| BigWallop replied to Nigel on 15 May 2004 |
You really need to look inside the switch which controls this light fitting. If it
has one red and one black wire in it then it makes life a bit easier for you. If it
has two red wires then you're going to need a meter or electrical tester to find the
main supply side of the circuit before you can get things right.
The batten holder should have a few terminals marked as "loop" or are unmarked inside
it so this is great for what you're going to do next.
If the switch has one red and one black wire, it is the black wire which becomes the
one that makes the light go on and off. The red wire is the supply to the switch.
At the batten holder you will need to connect the black wire from the switch to the L
terminal side even though this contradicts conventional wiring schemes. This will
leave you with one other black wire as the neutral (N) side of the batten holder. All
the red wires would then be connected to the loop through section in the batten
holder.
If the switch has two red wires in it, then you will need to find the red wire from
the three reds at the batten holder to find the one which supplies the lighting
circuit.
With three red wires, two of them will be connected together in the loop section of
the terminals, and one is then connected to the L side of the batten holder. The two
black wires are then connected together in the N side of the batten holder.
Remember to look inside the switch first and find out if it has one red and one black,
or if it has two reds. And also remember to turn the power OFF before you do anything
to the wiring, even in between doing any other tests on the circuits.
Also, this site might give some pointers on how things should go together:
http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/lights_and_switches.htm
This site should also be of some help I think:
http://www.technosolution.co.uk/diy/electrics/OneWay/oneway.htm Continues on to more
pages.
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| BigWallop replied to Nigel on 15 May 2004 |
You really need to look inside the switch which controls this light fitting. If it
has one red and one black wire in it then it makes life a bit easier for you. If it
has two red wires then you're going to need a meter or electrical tester to find the
main supply side of the circuit before you can get things right.
The batten holder should have a few terminals marked as "loop" or are unmarked inside
it so this is great for what you're going to do next.
If the switch has one red and one black wire, it is the black wire which becomes the
one that makes the light go on and off. The red wire is the supply to the switch.
At the batten holder you will need to connect the black wire from the switch to the L
terminal side even though this contradicts convensional wiring schemes. This will
leave you with one other black wire as the neutral (N) side of the batten holder. All
the red wires would then be connected to the loop through section in the batten
holder.
If the switch has two red wires in it, then you will need to find the red wire from
the three reds at the batten holder to find the one which supplies the lighting
circuit.
With three red wires, two of them will be connected together in the loop section of
the terminals, and one is then connected to the L side of the batten holder. The two
black wires are then connected together in the N side of the batten holder.
Remember to look inside the switch first and find out if it has one red and one black,
or if it has two reds. And also rememebr to turn the power OFF before you do anything
to the wiring, even in between doing any other tests on the circuits.
Also, this site might give some pointers on how things should go together:
http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/lights_and_switches.htm
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| N. Thornton replied to Nigel on 15 May 2004 |
If you dont know what youre doing, unconnecting any wires you
connected together should enable the lighting circuit to be on again.
If you dont know what you connected, separating all of them should
allow much of the lighting circuit to work, if not all. But if it has
green wires too, dont disconnect those from any other green wire.
This job is one you should not do unless you understand what youre
doing - I guess you now know why.
There are also legal issues with what youre doing, I dont know if you
realise that. For that reason I'd suggest calling an electrician to
fix it. If you decide to do it regardless, you need to at least ensure
any bare wires are insulated. There are other requirements as well of
course.
Regards, NT
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| Nigel replied to N. Thornton on 15 May 2004 |
Thanks for all your input it is really appreciated. I will take a look
at the switch and see if this helps explain the wiring and if it does
I will follow those excellent instructions. If it is still confusing I
will obtain professional help as suggested. I obviously insulated the
wires and removed the lighting fuse before leaving him to a weekend of
table lamps.
Thanks also for the links they are very useful.
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| BigWallop replied to Nigel on 16 May 2004 |
Please don't go there, he's having enough trouble with the lights as it is. :-))
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| John McLean replied to BigWallop on 16 May 2004 |
Word of warning
This "cloth covered cable" is known as v.r.i. or vulcanised rubber
insulated, phased out when p.v.c.i. came on the scene in the 50's/60's. Any
installation which still has this is just heading for a moth party.
Jay
"BigWallop" <spamguard@_spam_guard.com> wrote in message
news:NXHpc.1117$yS6.13897838@news-text.cableinet.net...
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| Huge replied to John McLean on 17 May 2004 |
The house we lived in some 19 years ago had it, and the rubber insulation was
incredibly friable even then, just moving the wire caused the rubber to crumble
and fall off.
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| Dave Plowman replied to John McLean on 17 May 2004 |
In my day it was VIR - vulcanised india rubber.
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| Lurch replied to Dave Plowman on 17 May 2004 |
In my day it was that real old rubber cable that needs ripping out and
rewiring otherwise I'm not touching it!
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| Dave Plowman replied to Lurch on 17 May 2004 |
Absolutely. It's possible to patch lead covered as it's often in perfect
condition if you strip it back a bit, so might do as a stopgap. But rubber
covered - when it goes it's gone...
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| The Natural Philosopher replied to Lurch on 17 May 2004 |
Thats the secret. Don't touch it. It works FINE, but the MOMENT you
touch it the insulation disintegrates and you have to re-wire. In me
mums house its still fine, laid in screwed togther earthed metal ducting.
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| Christian McArdle replied to John McLean on 17 May 2004 |
Yes. Any responsible electrician wouldn't touch it, except to remove it. How
could they issue a minor works certificate on something made from 50+ year
old rubber? Their indemnity insurance provider would go spare. You could
probably detect the earth leakage with a 2 quid multimeter from Lidl!
It really does sound like the whole house needs an pretty urgent rewiring.
The rubber only really lasts 25 years with any reliability. It may not be
long before the whole house burns down. Frequently, the insulation will have
perished to the extent that only an air gap exists over sections of cable.
If the house is rented, the owner should replace the wiring, as it isn't
really suitable for human habitation. If he owns the house, and can't afford
such major work, it may be possible to get the local council to pay for the
work (possibly in exchange for a charge on the property which is paid back
by his estate, hopefully in many more years time than if he gets torched in
his sleep). Also, the fact it has been rewired would mean much of the cost
would be recovered by increased sale price. It may be very difficult to sell
a house with rubber wiring and would always be flagged by a survey.
He may wish to contact Age Concern for advice, as the help available changes
frequently. See:
http://www.ageconcern.org.uk/AgeConcern/media/FS13FINAL.pdf
Costs for a rewire are obviously very variable, and depend on the size of
property, local conditions, specification etc. However, for an extremely
rough guide, around 3000 quid would leave a small amount change for many
jobs of this nature.
Christian.
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| Martin Angove replied to N. Thornton on 16 May 2004 |
Just as an aside, I would suggest that any installation which has
cloth-covered cables, no (apparent) earth and fittings "disintegrat[ing]
to dust" needs a thorough check-over and probably a re-wire. How do the
sockets look?
Hwyl!
M.
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| Ian Stirling replied to Nigel on 14 May 2004 |
My guess is that this is the remains of a fan circuit.
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