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Windows: wood or plastic? |
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| message from Ben C on 9 May 2004 |
Hi
I am doing a loft conversion and my builders have asked if I want to have
wood or plastic window frames.
Instinctively, I figured wood would give a classier finish but will need
painting every few years whereas plastic will last for ages and be
maintenance free. My builder recommends plastic, saying it is more widely
used, is less bulky and is more expensive (and therefore better). However,
I'm not sure my builder is much of an expert on this.
I have no clue as I've never looked at this at all. Does anyone out there
have any advice? I would greatly appreciate any help you can give...
Ben
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| G&M replied to Ben C on 9 May 2004 |
HARDwood windows. More expensive but they last forever even if not properly
maintained.
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| Toby replied to Ben C on 9 May 2004 |
If they can't be reached by ladder then painting may be costly.
If you feel PVCu would not be out of place, then it really is the default
choice.
I'd keep 100y.o. sashes all round the house, but put PVCu in a rear dormer.
I would ensure the internal board used for the sill/reveal is wood not
hollow plastic.
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| Rick Dipper replied to Ben C on 09 May 2004 |
If you *WANT* to paint windowis in your loft every few years - wood,
else all other considerations aside - plastic.
You can get some "heritage" plastic windows, that look like painted
wood (the edged are much slimer)
Rick
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| Christian McArdle replied to Ben C on 10 May 2004 |
Wood looks nicer and actually requires less maintenance. OK, wood requires
recoating in acrylic or solvent based paints every five years (but will last
for hundreds of years if this is done). Plastic doesn't require painting,
but does require wholesale replacement every 10 years as it rots and goes
totally skanky in approximately that period of time. I suspect that over a
long period, the wood would turn out to be cheaper.
Christian.
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| stuart noble replied to Christian McArdle on 10 May 2004 |
Rubbish. I don't like plastic frames aesthetically but I have never come
across one that needed replacing, or had degraded in any way since it was
fitted. No doubt today's materials are better than 10 years ago anyway.
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| T i m replied to stuart noble on 10 May 2004 |
I'd have to agree with you on that one (I normally agree with
Christians advice) ;-)
From memory we did the 'rebuild' on this (1897) place 15 years ago and
that included taking out 100 year old and mostly filler, newspaper,
rotten wood (and draughty) sash windows, re shaping the window holes
so they didn't go from 1' off the floor and ceiling to a more useful
shape (aspect) and fitting uPVC ones (I didn't care what it looked
like from the outside as it's not a 'nice area' and I live *inside*
<weg>)
I can honestly say I haven't touched any of them in all that time
(apart from a wipe down with a damp cloth every 5 years <g>) which is
just how I like it (I've got more interesting things to do than scrape
/ paint wood, however nice it might look). ;-) That job would be even
worse at dormer height? As soon as the soffits / facia's fall off
they will be uPVC too. ;-)
There are no draughts, 'stuck' (overpainted) openers, no moved rubber
seals, no black stripes or discolouration. Nor is there any
condensation or problems within the panels. The frames are no colder
in winter than the solid 9" walls they are fitted to? And 15 years ago
the 8 windows and doors cost 2.000 (local small Co) so I don't think
were that expensive either (I believe they were cheaper than wood at
the time ..).
Oh, and the two biggest windows and front door are South facing and
are in direct sunlight all day.
All the best ..
T i m
p.s. Anyone know if uPVC can be recycled as I would imagine most of
them would come out pretty clean (no paint / nails / putty to
contaminate it like wooden ones and you could easily unscrew the
hardware and cut out any reinforcement)?
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| Christian McArdle replied to T i m on 10 May 2004 |
Pah!
You're all philistines! ;-)
I'd love to see how your plastic windows compare with wood after 100 years!
They do vary, though. Some are much better than others. My last house came
with brown wood effect plastic, around 7 years old, which actually looked OK
after I scrubbed the black mould off with a pack of catering size scouring
pads. I couldn't get it all off, but the dark grained background made this
unnecessary, as a few spots didn't show.
The door did get ruined by trick or treaters, though. When we got back from
holiday to find egg stains on the door, it was actually impossible to
remove. Some compound in the egg appeared to have fused with the plastic
coating.
Other houses I've lived in had the white uPVC with split joints, failed DG
units and smooth surfaces punctured and roughened by the mould. The windows
were around 12 years old in that place and ready for the skip.
Another place I lived in had aluminium DG. The windows looked awful, stained
and mouldy, but it was the easiest thing in the world to clean and polish
them up like new. The mould practically leapt off when invited. It's just a
shame that metal frames were totally inappropriate to the house and looked
totally ridiculous.
Christian.
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| hudsterou replied to Christian McArdle on 10 May 2004 |
I think its swings and roundabouts.
Any good quality windows in good condition, plastic or wood or
aluminium, will look better than tired old windows. Modern windows of
any kind all do a good job at insulating and keeping out draughts.
If you're worried about the difference in resale value I would say it
would be minimal. Two identical houses, both with good-condition
windows, one wood, the other UPVC, will probably go for the same price.
Some buyers will think UPVC to be more valuable than wood as it is
maintenance free. Other buyers will think wood to be more valuable than
UPVC as it looks more natural.
My own choice if buying a property would be to go for the one with UPVC.
A good compromise, and my preferred choice, would be white coated
aluminium, with hardwood surrounds. Everest used to fit windows like
these, and they are the dog's boll*x. I'm not sure if they still do
them.....
f
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| Christian McArdle replied to hudsterou on 10 May 2004 |
This is absolutely dependent on area. Where I used to live*, good condition
uPVC windows would have been a plus. Where I now live**, having plastic
windows drops the price by 10K. Only about five houses in my street (of I
guess around 60 houses) has plastic on the front (including mine
unfortunately). Hopefully, this will be remedied soon. I've got a few other
projects on the go, first, though!
Christian.
* - Lower Earley, a large private housing estate built in the prevailing
modern style (built 1982-present day)
** - Belleview estate, an area on the Earley/Reading University borders
consisting of predominantly semi-detached Edwardian period houses (built
1905-1920).
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| Tony Williams replied to Christian McArdle on 10 May 2004 |
Vague memories of housing estate around Earley where
you cannot park a caravan on your drive, because of
an old law that some lord of the manor got passed,
meant to bar gypsies from his land..... the estate
where the Rolling Stones bungalow is?
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| Christian McArdle replied to Tony Williams on 10 May 2004 |
Come to think of it, I do remember something in the deeds about not having a
caravan except during rebuilding works. I haven't seen those deeds in years,
so it might have been less restrictive, like being allowed to own and park
it, but not live in it, but I'm not sure. The number of convenants in the
thing was quite astounding, really.
Never heard of it.
Christian.
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| T i m replied to Christian McArdle on 10 May 2004 |
Well I am anyway ;-)
I'm not sure the house or I will be here Christian ;-)
Was you house under a peir or summat Christian? <weg> I've just had a
lok round all the 15 yr old uPVC and apart from a few dark surface
spots of summat on the North facing frames the reast is very clear
(considering how rarely it's touched / cleaned etc).
"Trick or treaters" or "demanding reward by menace" or straight
vandalism? Boiling oil is too good for them ;-)
But think of all that painting you avoided! (my pet hate, painting)
Horses for courses I suppose. I wanted a small frontal extension on
this house, sort of a full width porch. The council said I could do it
as long as I kept the sash window style. This was no use to me as two
sash windows in the bedroom broke up the wall too much for putting
things inside and went too near the sides for wardrobes etc so we
didn't bother.
The 'reason' the plans were rejected was that it would "ruin the
street scene"? That was with one of the other 8 houses in the terrace
painted white, another rendered and another had all the pointing
painted white and bricks red? A railway crossing was 50 yds away and a
large 'cell block' type council estate round the corner. That with
being hemmed in over the 26 years I've lived here with motorways and
other major roadworks (none of which I had requested or passed) I
thought it was all a bit of a cheek. To add insult etc I could site
about 20 such 'extensions' within a 1/4 mile radius in similar aged
properties ... not enough grease in a palm maybe .. ?
All the best ..
T i m
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| Christian McArdle replied to stuart noble on 10 May 2004 |
So you haven't seen the surface delaminate and the joints come apart and the
corners covered in that black staining mould that eats the surface?
Christian.
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| Capitol replied to Christian McArdle on 10 May 2004 |
No, my plastic windows are excellent and that's after 20 years in
north/south/westerly directions. I'd sooner spend my time doing something
worthwhile than repairing/repainting rotten wooden windows. By the way,
Sadolin etc, satin finishes IME are total crap after a few years. They can
be extremely difficult to remove after they have blistered. It's generally
easier to throw the wooden product away and start again! If you want wood,
either use a good marine varnish, enamel paint or a plain spirit stain.
Regards
Capitol
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| Christian McArdle replied to Capitol on 11 May 2004 |
I prefer acrylics. They last five years, are easy to rub down and recoat,
don't stink and don't stay wet for a week.
Christian.
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| Lee replied to Ben C on 09 May 2004 |
uPVC was a *third* of the price of wooden replacment windows in our place.
I don't think I'd want to see the sort of quality wooden windows your
builder is thinking of then... ;)
Lee
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| Andrea Fuller replied to Ben C on 13 May 2004 |
Well, I'm not planning on being around for 100 years to find out!
That'll be for the then owner to sort out, assuming the house is still
here (built in 1980s). When (if?) I can afford to do my windows*, I'll
have to go with whatever is cheapest, as I am on a very limited income.
* Have to get the central heating sorted first. Rip out all the old
'forced air' heat ducting, boiler, etc. and put proper central heating
in. Should be able to do this sometime this year after much penny
pinching. I'll save a packet on the gas bill once it is done.
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| Pete C replied to Ben C on 09 May 2004 |
Hi,
If the rest of the house has classy wooden frames then stick to
something similar but research it carefully.
cheers,
Pete.
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| andrewpreece replied to Pete C on 10 May 2004 |
Wood has better proportions than uPVC owing to its higher strength, and IMO
a wooden window frame done in a 'natural' wood finish ( e.g. microporous
Sadolin Advanced Woodstain - not varnish ) looks heaps better than uPVC. My
remaining wooden window frames are 70 years old and sound. As mentioned,
they do need painting once in a while though. Sometimes to get the best end
result you need to put a little work in.......
If you paint the windowframes in gloss paint then use a paint
'system', i.e. primer/undercoat/topcoat or as recommended, and buy the best
quality paint, painting is a chore so best to do it properly in the first
place.
I have seen wood effect uPVC and it is reasonably good in
reproducing the grain and colour of wood but as with all uPVC, the frames
are rather chunky. Anyway, my personal view is that a fake is a fake, if you
want something that looks like wood, buy wood!
Andy
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| Coherers replied to andrewpreece on 10 May 2004 |
I'll second this. I have a south-facing wooden window frame painted with an
acrylic "system" coatings that showed no sign of flaking or other
deterioration after nearly 15 years. (Sandtex exterior). Properly applied, I
see them as giving you the best of both worlds - you have wood with a
replaceable plastic coating to resist the weathering !
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| Hamie replied to Ben C on 09 May 2004 |
I'd trust a builder as far as I could kick him with my feet tied
together & set in concrete.
Go for wood. Any builder who thinks plastic lasts longer obviously
hasn't got a clue. Ever seen an old pastic window? They're yellow,
probably cracked or cracking etc. Plastic really doesn't like UV...
Whereas wooden windows will last for centuries.
H
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| jacob replied to Hamie on 9 May 2004 |
Plastic windows are total crap.
Wood windows can be total crap worse than plastic if badly done, but
can be brilliant if done well. So the main question is who is doing
it.. If your builder is recommending plastic then I wouldn't have any
faith in his judgement re wooden windows. You might be better off with
a proper joiner.
cheers
Jacob
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| Mary Hinge replied to jacob on 10 May 2004 |
Do window companies still do white ali in hardwood surrounds or am I
totally out of date? These always seemed a much better choice than
uPVC, thinner frames, more substantial, better quality, longer lasting
etc. Don't know much about it all though, just had them in our old
place, installed by previous owners. Could be **** for all I know ;o)
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| RichardS replied to Mary Hinge on 10 May 2004 |
news:<b9730626.0405092252.78999fd0@posting.google.com>...
We had a Monarch "Monaframe" powder-coated aluminium french doors put into
the dining room a couple of years ago.
This was before part L building regs came into effect so I don't know
whether they're compliant and therefore still sold.
however, they are really really good - a class above all the uPVC that's
installed in the place (from previous owners, including nasty replacements
for the sashes that would have been at the front. <spit>). Close and open
with a lovely solid feel, and look good as well. I don't think that they
will suffer any of the staining problems that affect uPVC frames.
Not cheap, though.
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| Bob Mannix replied to Mary Hinge on 11 May 2004 |
news:<b9730626.0405092252.78999fd0@posting.google.com>...
The windows are still available (we have just had some put in) but they tend
not to be in wooden frames. They are (clearly) compliant with the new
standards and are, as you say, nuch better (IMHO as well) as the size of the
frame parts matches the ones they replaced much better, being thinner than
the nasty uPVC versions! There's a premium on them though as less are made.
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| stuart noble replied to Ben C on 9 May 2004 |
Up there, who cares? I'd go with the plastic and forget about it. Wood will
be a maintenance nightmare.
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| mrcheerful replied to Ben C on 09 May 2004 |
my take is that if wood gets damaged or needs repair it is fixable, plastic
is throw away time.
mrcheerful
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| troubleinstore replied to mrcheerful on 09 May 2004 |
We have had the uPVC windows installed all over the house. Wow the
frames are really cold in winter. Much colder than wood. I'll have
double glazed wooden framed windows at my next house if I need to have
them replaced.
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| Michael Mcneil replied to troubleinstore on 9 May 2004 |
"troubleinstore" <troubleinstore@beeb.net> wrote in message
news:c7lhjn$avn$2$8300dec7@news.beeb.net
I've always thought white plastic ugly and the gasket liable to run
filthy black streaks down it. The section is hollow and relatively good
at conducting heat and they channel internal draughts.
Having said that, they fitted them in my council flat and the flat is as
warm as toast. Too hot in the summer.
Ben:
Before you go any further , since you are making the opening why not
make it to suit the size of your window?
Go around some of the local double glaziers and ask them for
mismeasures. Anything they have in stock will be dirt cheap.
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