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OFF TOPIC: the end for web design firms? |
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| message from Wayne... on 21 Jul 2004 |
Round here [the north east of England] prices seem to have gone through the
floor. Contributing factors are probably that these days everyone thinks
This is akin to letting your tea boy design your shop window and layout. I
have lost count of the clients that think even something as low as £100
would be far too much for the most complex of sites. I can see this causing
the end of small web design firms as we know it.
Standards are there for a reason, until the general internet populous are
more educated about these things [or even realise they exist!] we are all on
borrowed time.
I have been designing and coding web solutions for more time than I care to
remember and this is the first time I actually am considering leaving the
arena [work-wise anyway]. I wouldn't expect to be able to re-wire a house
myself I'd call in someone who understands the relevant standards and knows
there job. The proliferation of 'wizards' that fool people into thinking
that's a web site suitable for an online business and programs that make it
easier and easier and produce more and more bloated code such as Dreamweaver
and FrontPage only make matters worse.
Why hire someone when you can buy a program for less that enables you [most
often badly] to do it yourself? I realise this is an off topic winge but
just take notice of the newbie's trying to code there own site and get help
from paid professionals for free ;-)
It's the best con going for a small to medium sized business. Everyone has
a 'mate' or 'mate of a mate' that says they are a web designer.
Reality check:
Being able to hit some buttons in the right order in Dreamweaver or any
other program does not make a person a web designer.
Understandings of color theory etc are paramount. When sites such as that
for the Odeon chain of cinemas can't even produce a valid site then we know
the net has problems.
I have spent years as have many others that do this for a living learning
the hard way. Why should we cut our own throats by telling people who have
no intention of every hiring our type create a site of their own if they are
not prepared to do the work? I've had clients that not only don't knew what
I would term as very basic net knowledge but don't realize that you have to
optimize for search engine placement. Do they realize there site may not
even render correctly in some browsers and versions? This wasn't much of a
problem but as users of different makes of browsers are on the increase this
is going to matter one helluva lot!
Maintaining an existing site or putting right problems and bugs is totally
different.
This isn't a troll it's just the way I see it, I'm sure there will be MANY
MANY MANY people who disagree as is there right. Just ask yourselves the
reasons they find this post so horrifying.
The company I have been running is about to change direction to start and
use these people against themselves. They all seem to have the same
problems so why not charge the buggers for the solutions as some sites
already do?
There's no such thing as a free lunch.
I've been programming in one fashion or another seriously since the mid to
late 80's this is as bad as I can remember it.
The net is dead....long live the net
Wayne Robson
Disillusioned web solutions designer and coder
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| Joe {RoastHorse} replied to Wayne... on 22 Jul 2004 |
so what separates you from those that can produce websites so cheaply?
you need to figure out what you do that is worth £xx/hour and find
clients that need and appreciate this.
someone who knows how to fudge a site with some contact info and a
catalogue will be able to meet the needs of many small businesses.
clients that need professional designs, web applications, online
marketing skills, strategic planning, etc. will need to find a
designer/firm with more experience, this generaly doesn't come too cheap.
joe
Wayne... wrote:
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| cdriscoll replied to Wayne... on 22 Jul 2004 |
Wayne, I understand your frustration. My colleagues and I here in NJ feel it
too. (Forgive me for using Dreamweaver- though I do go in and hand-code much)
What concerns us is the template business. You can find them for $65 or less,
or even for free. Change the graphics and voila! A website fast and furious. I
am a one person shop in my firm and confess even we've had to use them.
People mistake the web for being "easy" to do and wonder why those of us with
educations in art concerned with code, SEO, and fast loading graphics, take so
long. What makes a successful website?
Ultimately I think that many companies will find that they are truly in need
of professionals if they want to maintain a professional site. My sister was
put in charge of a website and I ended up spending hours on the phone with her
holding her hand- explaining the web, graphics etc. Later she asked-"How do you
know all this?"
Because I've gone to school and work in the field professionally and am no
longer green and a newbie. I've made my mistakes years ago- and my professional
work now saves our company time and money. When people get tired of taking care
of their sites late into the evenings- after running their businesses all day-
I believe many will again come back to design firms for professional help,
redesign and maintenance.
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| David B replied to Wayne... on 21 Jul 2004 |
I agree with much of what you said, but I have a question:
What have YOU done to educate the public? Doctors and teachers have lost
control of their professions, while web designers never had control of
theirs. They just let Bill Gates and all the amateurs call the shots.
Seriously, I wish more web designers would tell their clients and
visitors about their options - like Mozilla browsers. I wish they
wouldn't be so afraid of dredging up the dreaded P word - politics.
It's reality, and you ignore it at your own peril.
I hope your post isn't entirely accurate, because I'm just in the
process of launching my own business; I haven't even acquired my first
client yet. I'm going to start out charging ridiculously low prices -
provided clients agree to let me do their webhosting for a minimum of
three months.
I may be hurting the profession by driving prices down, but many others
are hurting me be selling out the profession.
No apologies - that's the way I see it. (And I'm usually right. :)
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| Wayne... replied to David B on 22 Jul 2004 |
well I always as a matter of course try to educate those I come into contact
both business and pleasure what the options are to do with most things
internet orientated.
Partly the trouble is kids of 15 opening online web design busineses [and
hosting companies] from there bedrooms. They produce terrible pages
[although there are a small ammount that seem to know ther stuff] and
provide no tech support for their client base.
We regulalry update our clients on ways to improve the content of there
sites and improve on them because after all as designers we basically
produce the frame work its up to them to keep it intersting and current. We
also syndicate a live rss news feed for anyoe intersted to include in their
site.
I hope you make a go of your business, but I warn you unless your in one of
the lucky areas that still make decent money be prepared for some damned
hard work, difficult clients who change their mind every 5 mins, and being
treated like a glorified typist by your clients who just do not understand
or care what you do, only the bottom line.
At least this has went down better than i thought it would {so far}....lol
Wayne....
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| Steve Fleischer replied to Wayne... on 22 Jul 2004 |
Precisely - why should they? If they buy a program and make a site that
pleases them (and their visitors) then good luck to them. At the end of the
day that is all that matters. Whether you or I like their site is of no
consequence.
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| John Tucker replied to Steve Fleischer on 21 Jul 2004 |
Most of the business owners I know don't have the time nor the inclination
to do it themselves, and they don't have the employee(s) to spare to learn
how. Thank goodness. :-)
John
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| Steve Fleischer replied to John Tucker on 22 Jul 2004 |
Absolutely! :-)
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| Robert Barnett replied to Steve Fleischer on 22 Jul 2004 |
I used to work for a large design firm here in Santa Rosa (no I didn't do
design, I was their accountant). I can tell you that most of the customers
that came to use for site work were people that either thought they could do
it themselves with programs like FrontPage or they had a friend or someone
do the site. In the end they almost always realized that was a mistake. They
learned that there is much more to designing a business site than just
placing things on screen. Most of them learned that hardware with poor
visitor or complaints. I especially loved the ones that used FrontPage
themes and then blasted in e-mail after e-mail. It is amazing how many
people won't buy or consider doing business with a company who's web site is
done with FrontPage themes.
Robert
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| Murray *TMM* replied to Robert Barnett on 22 Jul 2004 |
I love it when people use FP to build their sites. I get to fix them all.
And I'm not cheap.
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| Mad Dog replied to Murray *TMM* on 22 Jul 2004 |
I have to say, I've never lost sleep over losing a job like that. Okay, a
little, but not much. All I have to do is think about how it would be
working with someone who wants to take the lowball cheapie crappy-job price
(whether done by their nephew or otherwise) and I breathe a sigh of relief
that I'm not putting myself through that.
Though I will say I've done a decent bit of work cleaning up what other
people screwed up the first time. At my usual hourly rate........*s*
Murray *TMM* wrote:
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| Murray *TMM* replied to Mad Dog on 22 Jul 2004 |
I'm with you. Jobs like that come to me down the road. I don't need the
annoyance right now. I figure all those nephews out there can take the heat
and soften the client up with a healthy dose of reality.
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| Robert Barnett replied to Murray *TMM* on 22 Jul 2004 |
Yes, but if you can put up with the headaches they can be very profitable. I
have seen many times the person paid little Timmy $100 for their site and
then have to turn around and spend $5000 or more to get what they need to at
least make Timmy's site half way decent.
Most of the time what they did was show them that if they fix what is there
it will cost twice as much over just starting over from scratch. We get to
do a lot of new sites that way too.
Robert
"Murray *TMM*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
news:cdpf0v$6tu$1@forums.macromedia.com...
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| Mad Dog replied to Robert Barnett on 22 Jul 2004 |
I agree. You missed my post earlier where I said I've gotten a good bit of
work fixing a site up when someone did a lousy (cheap!) job.
MD
Robert Barnett wrote:
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| Win Day replied to Mad Dog on 22 Jul 2004 |
When I run into a client who would rather use the (apparently) cheaper
online tools to build their own site, I always ask them to keep a
good, honest record of how much time it really takes them to do the
work. Multiply that by a decent hourly rate and they get a real
shock.
About a third of them come back in a year or 18 months and hire me to
fix it the way it should have been built in the first place.
Win
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| cdriscoll replied to Win Day on 23 Jul 2004 |
Hey- jamie.heaney
Unfortunately I was still in school while the boom was on- only to graduate in
2001, just when the bubble burst.
Believe me- colleagues got burned, many did not learn enough to secure
themselves jobs because they ONLY knew web, and no print, and did not have any
art background. I quickly learned that I'd built my house on sand- I knew
Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Director, Bryce etc, but really did not know how to
employ them fully. I'm still taking art classes now and have much more to offer
my clients.
I agree too, that there are some great "newbies" out there. I think what some
of the trouble is, l've seen companies send admins with no formal training to
classes to learn how to do graphic design for a day and web work for two days
and expect them to present professional results. There is alot of poor design
out there.
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| Mad Dog replied to Murray *TMM* on 22 Jul 2004 |
I also figure that those clients who are happy with the site their nephew
created wouldn't appreciate a good job if they got off their wallet to have
one made!
MD
Murray *TMM* wrote:
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| Robert Barnett replied to Murray *TMM* on 22 Jul 2004 |
Well, it interesting that you say that. The company I worked for for the
longest time used FP to design perfectly good, very nice looking sites. But,
they were smart with that in that they left the proprietary stuff alone and
did a lot of hand coding. Fortunately, I kept after them and now they all
use DW.
FrontPage should burn in the same hell it sends web pages to.
Robert
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| jamie.heaney replied to Wayne... on 22 Jul 2004 |
This thread looked dead, but I noticed that it's been discussed thoroughly by
professionals, and that no beginners posted.
I would like to add, if not finish this post, by introducing two ideas, as a
beginner.
1. In any profession, there is the bloated idea that it takes a professional
to get a job done. It is an arrogant attitude, which is why after fine art
school, I am a commercial fisherman, and not an artist. I find that the
technology industry suffers from the same affliction that I found in school
myself. To say that if one produces something of worth, but then has no value
because it is not of the highest order, is a waste that spawns arrogance.
Along with these bloated ideas, are bloated prices... and as a small
businessman myself, I know very well what 'professionals' charge.
2. Capitalism. Yep, that's my second point. A sincere idea to level the
playing feild for all, that in its due course like all human social systems has
found a way to wedge a divide between the have's and have not's. VIVA LA
DREAMWEAVER!!
lol, ok, no more fun, but seriously, I think you're way off-base Wayne, you
attack those of us who do for ourselves and are willing to help others around
us. (though now i'll have to rethink helping others at an affordable price, I
never realized my code was putting others and the net in such great jeapordy.
err.) Everyone has worth, and only experts think their product is worth more
than a loaf of bread should be... as my captain's father always says, expert's
are ex-'s, that've already had their spurt. It's your frame of mind that's
hurting Wayne, not your wallet.
ps. VIVA LA MURRAY*TMM*, but remember it's not FP that's letting you dig into
their wallets, but their own lack of will to dig into their own agenda.
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| Murray *TMM* replied to jamie.heaney on 22 Jul 2004 |
LOL. A healty dose of pragmatism and street smarts never hurt anyone.
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| Wayne... replied to jamie.heaney on 23 Jul 2004 |
interesting but predictable responses I'm afraid. when it comes right down
to it I dont expect anyone who wants to make their own site to throw out
their copy of DW and hire a pro. I am realistic. Just sometimes people
forget there are levels of expertise. It would be like a medical student
saying he's a specalist. I really have got sick of putting design ideas on
hold because the work that comes in is to put right f*** ups that someone
who really thought they were the next eric mayer did for his mate. I never
add these to their portfolio as the client usually wants a quick job done
and their mate to get the credit. Usually the thought of another redesign
horrifys them because of what they went through 'last time'.
Dont talk about have's and have nots thats no excuse for cutting a pro out
of a job. Do you see people trying to pratice medicine who aren't doctors?
I started my life at the very bottom and learned to code web pages using
notepad [which i still use BTW] and programming at the command line. In a
way this was a good thing as I wasn't spoilt by GUI's that did it all for
me. [and I know I'm not the only one]
maybe part of me is sick of what the titles 'web designer' and 'coder' mean
to your business types. It conjures up [or is starting to] images of people
who could never get work any other way, teenagers who think it's cool and
idealists.
I'm none of the above. If this post seems bitter its not meant to be. I
too trained as something else originally and left that feild so I can see
where your coming from thought he argument that its cheaper therefore good
is a mute one. That is the same argument used by pirates [and cheapskates]
the world over.
The business that I get coming in is only now starting to look at the web
with different eyes but I still think it will take a long time to come
through to the conclusion I think it needs to. But when people do a bad
site for free it makes the field devauled as a whole, I'd like to think that
its better than that. But when you get down to it something is only worth
what a person will pay for it [ as my dad says] unfortunatley people are not
willing to pay at all!
Wayne...
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| Robert Barnett replied to jamie.heaney on 22 Jul 2004 |
I understand where you coming from and your right just because a person is a
novice doesn't mean they can't do good work. On, the other hand those of use
that have either worked professionally or worked with professionals know
that 90% of the time novice means crap. You can get a good idea about this
by looking at how the person works, what they use to get the job done, etc.
In general here was are talking about someone that goes down to Best Buy and
get $100 program and think they can design professional web sites that will
meet a businesses needs.
The few times we came across a novice that showed real possibilities we
hired them. In fact we also hired students who took the proper classes at
the local junior collage. Being a novice is fine if you have the information
to do the job right. Then most likely you will just be a little slow until
you get your web design legs. I am at this stage now, I am enjoying the
process a lot. I also have 3 web sites to take care of and as I learn I try
hard to make them better and better.
Robert
"jamie.heaney" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:cdpb9k$2r1$1@forums.macromedia.com...
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